Comment by Riaz Haq on August 2, 2025 at 8:14pm

How Pakistan shot down India’s cutting-edge fighter using Chinese gear

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/how-pakistan-sho...

ISLAMABAD/NEW DELHI: Just after midnight on May 7, the screen in the Pakistan Air Force’s operations room lit up in red with the positions of dozens of active enemy planes across the border in India.

Air Chief Mshl. Zaheer Sidhu had been sleeping on a mattress just off that room for days in anticipation of an Indian assault.

New Delhi had blamed Islamabad for backing militants who carried out an attack the previous month in Indian-administered Kashmir, which killed 26 civilians. Despite Islamabad denying any involvement, India had vowed a response, which came in the early hours of May 7 with air strikes on Pakistan.

Sidhu ordered Pakistan’s prized Chinese-made J-10C jets to scramble. A senior Pakistani Air Force (PAF) official, who was present in the operations room, said Sidhu instructed his staff to target Rafales, a French-made fighter that is the jewel of India’s fleet and had never been downed in battle.

“He wanted Rafales,” said the official.

The hour-long fight, which took place in darkness, involved some 110 aircraft, experts estimate, making it the world’s largest air battle in decades. The J-10s shot down at least one Rafale, Reuters reported in May, citing US officials. Its downing surprised many in the military community and raised questions about the effectiveness of Western military hardware against untested Chinese alternatives. Shares of Dassault, which makes the Rafale, dipped after reports the fighter had been shot down. Indonesia, which has outstanding Rafale orders, has said it is now considering purchasing J-10s – a major boost to China’s efforts to sell the aircraft overseas.

But Reuters interviews with two Indian officials and three of their Pakistani counterparts found that the performance of the Rafale wasn’t the key problem: Central to its downing was an Indian intelligence failure concerning the range of the

China-made PL-15 missile fired by the J-10 fighter. China and Pakistan are the only countries to operate both J-10s, known as Vigorous Dragons, and PL-15s.

The faulty intelligence gave the Rafale pilots a false sense of confidence they were out of Pakistani firing distance, which they believed was only around 150 km, the Indian officials said, referring to the widely cited range of PL-15’s export variant.

“We ambushed them,” the PAF official said, adding that Islamabad conducted an electronic warfare assault on Delhi’s systems in an attempt to confuse Indian pilots. Indian officials dispute the effectiveness of those efforts.

“The Indians were not expecting to be shot at,” said Justin Bronk, air warfare expert at London’s Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) think-tank. “And the PL-15 is clearly very capable at long range.”

The PL-15 that hit the Rafale was fired from around 200km (124.27 mi) away, according to Pakistani officials, and even farther according to Indian officials. That would make it among the longest-range air-to-air strikes recorded.

India’s defense and foreign ministries did not return requests for comment about the intelligence mistakes. Delhi hasn’t acknowledged a Rafale being shot down, but France’s air chief told reporters in June that he had seen evidence of the loss of that fighter and two other aircraft flown by India, including a Russian-made Sukhoi. A top Dassault executive also told French lawmakers that month that India had lost a Rafale in operations, though he didn’t have specific details.

Pakistan’s military referred to past comments by a spokesperson who said that its professional preparedness and resolve was more important than the weaponry it had deployed. China’s defense ministry did not respond to Reuters’ questions. Dassault and UAC, the manufacturer of the Sukhoi, also did not return requests for comment.

Comment by Riaz Haq on August 2, 2025 at 8:16pm

How Pakistan shot down India’s cutting-edge fighter using Chinese gear

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/how-pakistan-sho...

“SITUATIONAL AWARENESS”

Reuters spoke to eight Pakistani and two Indian officials to piece together an account of the aerial battle, which marked the start of four days of fighting between the two nuclear-armed neighbors that caused alarm in Washington. The officials all spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss national security matters.

Not only did Islamabad have the element of surprise with its missiles’ range, the Pakistani and Indian officials said, but it managed to more efficiently connect its military hardware to surveillance on the ground and in the air, providing it with a clearer picture of the battlefield. Such networks, known as “kill chains,” have become a crucial element of modern warfare.

Four Pakistani officials said they created a “kill chain,” or a multi-domain operation, by linking air, land and space sensors. The network included a Pakistani-developed system, Data Link 17, which connected Chinese military hardware with other equipment, including a Swedish-made surveillance plane, two Pakistani officials said.

The system allowed the J-10s flying closer to India to obtain radar feeds from the surveillance plane cruising further away, meaning the Chinese-made fighters could turn their radars off and fly undetected, according to experts. Pakistan’s military did not respond to requests for comment on this point.

Delhi is trying to set up a similar network, the Indian officials said, adding that their process was more complicated because the country sourced aircraft from a wide range of exporters.

Retired UK Air Mshl. Greg Bagwell, now a fellow at RUSI, said the episode didn’t conclusively prove the superiority of either Chinese or Western air assets but it showed the importance of having the right information and using it.

“The winner in this was the side that had the best situational awareness,” said Bagwell.

CHANGE IN TACTICS

After India in the early hours of May 7 struck targets in Pakistan that it called “terrorist infrastructure,” Sidhu ordered his squadrons to switch from defense to attack.

Five PAF officials said India had deployed some 70 planes, which was more than they had expected and provided Islamabad’s PL-15s with a target-rich environment. India has not said how many planes were used.

The May 7 battle marked the first big air contest of the modern era in which weaponry is used to strike targets beyond visual range, said Bagwell, noting both India and Pakistan’s planes remained well within their airspaces across the duration of the fight.

Five Pakistani officials said an electronic assault on Indian sensors and communications systems reduced the situational awareness of the Rafale’s pilots.

The two Indian officials said the Rafales were not blinded during the skirmishes and that Indian satellites were not jammed. But they acknowledged that Pakistan appeared to have disrupted the Sukhoi, whose systems Delhi is now upgrading.

Other Indian security officials have deflected questions away from the Rafale, a centerpiece of India’s military modernization, to the orders given to the air force.

India’s defense attaché in Jakarta told a university seminar that Delhi had lost some aircraft “only because of the constraint given by the political leadership to not attack (Pakistan’s) military establishments and their air defenses.”

India’s chief of defense staff Gen. Anil Chauhan previously told Reuters that Delhi quickly “rectified tactics” after the initial losses.

After the May 7 air battle, India began targeting Pakistani military infrastructure and asserting its strength in the skies. Its Indian-made BrahMos supersonic cruise missile repeatedly sliced through Pakistan’s air defenses, according to officials on both sides.

Comment by Riaz Haq on August 2, 2025 at 8:17pm

How Pakistan shot down India’s cutting-edge fighter using Chinese gear

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/how-pakistan-sho...

On May 10, India said it struck at least nine air bases and radar sites in Pakistan. It also hit a surveillance plane parked in a hangar in southern Pakistan, according to Indian and Pakistani officials. A ceasefire was agreed later that day, after

US officials held talks with both sides.

‘LIVE INPUTS’

In the aftermath of the episode, India’s deputy army chief Lt. Gen. Rahul Singh accused Pakistan of receiving “live inputs” from China during the battles, implying radar and satellite feeds. He did not provide evidence and Islamabad denies the allegation.

When asked at a July briefing about Beijing’s military partnership with Pakistan, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Mao Ning told reporters the work was “part of the normal cooperation between the two countries and does not target any third party.”

Beijing’s air chief Lt. Gen. Wang Gang visited Pakistan in July to discuss how Islamabad had used Chinese equipment to put together the “kill chain” for the Rafale, two PAF officials said.

China did not respond when asked about that interaction. The Pakistani military said in a statement in July that Wang had expressed “keen interest in learning from PAF’s battle-proven experience in Multi Domain Operations.”

Comment by Riaz Haq on August 2, 2025 at 8:20pm

Social media posts suggest Pakistan has received a shipment of advanced aircraft similar to helicopter China has deployed near Indian border

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3320541/will-chine...


Images circulating online suggest Pakistan’s military has received a shipment of Chinese-made advanced attack helicopters, a version of which has been deployed by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) near China’s mountainous border with India.


In the past week, photos and videos of the Z-10ME, the export version of the Chinese multirole attack helicopter, have appeared on Pakistani social media accounts.
On Tuesday, a social media user believed to be an active-duty member of the Pakistan Army uploaded a video clearly showing the helicopter airborne, apparently conducting field airport support missions from a military base.

The video was captioned: “First look at Pakistan’s Z-10ME attack helicopter armed with next-gen air-to-ground missiles.”

This followed a photo posted on Monday



The image marked the first credible evidence of the Z-10ME’s operational status within the Pakistan Army Aviation Corps.

While multiple videos and photos of the aircraft have circulated, it is unclear if they show the same Z-10ME or different helicopters of the same model.

Several news outlets reported in early July that Pakistan had deployed 40 Z-10ME attack helicopters into service, marking a significant upgrade of its aviation combat capability.



While specifics of the procurement and delivery timeline have not been disclosed, it is widely expected that the helicopters will officially debut during Pakistan’s Republic Day parade in Islamabad in March.

The revelation came just months after another Chinese aircraft operated by Pakistan’s military, the J-10C, made global headlines for shooting down Indian-operated French Rafale fighter jets when the South Asian neighbours clashed over Kashmir in May.
Senior military officials from China and Pakistan have interacted frequently since the conflict, including a meeting between defence ministers in June and talks between airforce chiefs in Islamabad last month.

Zhang Youxia, first-ranked vice-chairman of China’s Central Military Commission, met Pakistan Army Chief General Asim Munir in Beijing on July 25.
Zhang is the highest-ranking PLA official to engage with Pakistan’s military leadership since the latest Kashmir tensions. He highlighted military ties as a key pillar of China-Pakistan relations and urged strategic coordination, deeper cooperation, and joint efforts towards regional peace.



For nearly four decades, Pakistan’s primary helicopter force has consisted of AH-1F Cobra helicopters and a limited number of Russian-made Mi-35 Hinds, but the ageing aircraft are now viewed as inadequate for the needs of modern warfare.



According to an earlier report by state broadcaster CCTV, the PLA has deployed the Z-10 in the Tibet autonomous region, which borders India. The helicopter used in Tibet has an operational ceiling of around 6,000 metres (19,685 feet), and the export variant is also suitable for mountainous areas including Kashmir.

Comments on social media and military forums suggested the Z-10ME helicopters surpassed the standard PLA variants in engine power, protective systems, and electronic warfare capabilities.

The Z-10ME helicopters feature new WZ-9G turboshaft engines with improved power output, which can reportedly outperform India’s US-made Apache helicopters under similar conditions.

Comment by Riaz Haq on August 2, 2025 at 8:22pm

Social media posts suggest Pakistan has received a shipment of advanced aircraft similar to helicopter China has deployed near Indian border

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3320541/will-chine...

According to Chinese defence publications, the Z-10ME can reach speeds of up to 300km/h (186mph), with a combat radius ranging from 800 to 1,120km (497 to 696 miles), depending on fuel and weapon loads.

Its maximum take-off weight of roughly 7,200kg (15,873lbs) provides notable endurance and loiter time for both close air support and deep interdiction operations.

Its improved protective features include titanium and ceramic composite armour, significantly boosting pilot safety.

The high-definition image circulating on Monday suggested a suite of advanced avionics to improve situational awareness and missile defence capabilities. This includes an Active Electronically Scanned Array- or AESA-based missile approach warning system and directional infrared counter measures, making the helicopters even more sophisticated than the PLA’s own baseline Z-10s, according to defence analysts.

Most notably, the Z-10ME incorporates comprehensive electronic countermeasures, including radar, ultraviolet and laser warnings, with enhanced infrared directional interference systems – features previously unseen in Chinese helicopters.

Engine exhaust modifications and infrared suppressors further reduce the aircraft’s thermal signatures.

According to an earlier report by state broadcaster CCTV, the PLA has deployed the Z-10 in the Tibet autonomous region, which borders India. The helicopter used in Tibet has an operational ceiling of around 6,000 metres (19,685 feet), and the export variant is also suitable for mountainous areas including Kashmir.

Comments on social media and military forums suggested the Z-10ME helicopters surpassed the standard PLA variants in engine power, protective systems, and electronic warfare capabilities.

The Z-10ME helicopters feature new WZ-9G turboshaft engines with improved power output, which can reportedly outperform India’s US-made Apache helicopters under similar conditions.

Additionally, the Z-10ME’s armament upgrades include six weapon stations capable of carrying CM-502KG precision strike missiles with a 25km range and a 23mm cannon system, significantly outperforming older AH-1F and T-129 helicopter models.

Meanwhile, India is also upgrading its fleet of combat helicopters.

On July 22, the Indian Army received its initial delivery of three AH-64E Apache Guardian helicopters from the United States. The latest variant of the attack helicopters are expected to be deployed on India’s western front bordering Pakistan.

Comment by Riaz Haq on August 2, 2025 at 9:12pm

Habibullah Khan
@Huk06
Poor analysis because it doesn’t understand that a) Pakistan’s posture is defensive & b) Pakistan’s procurement is strategically aligned to its system of systems approach.

This approach which creates a kill web was used successfully to comprehensively defeat India in a high altitude battle. The piece Pakistan was missing was low altitude. Low altitude supremacy allows tank battalions to move as a crucial part of a hot war. Pakistan’s capability here was almost 60 years old.

Not anymore. China’s Z-10ME helicopter and its TY-90 missile are a deadly combination. TY-90 is the world’s only air-to-air missile specifically designed for low altitude helicopter combat. It has a 4 km range in all directions including above. It’s esp deadly to expensive drones like Israeli Harop & SkyStriker that are used by India to take out air defence.

Remember this helicopter will be guided by situational awareness data from satellites, drones, AEW&C, ground radar and humint inside enemy territory. Something India cannot manager yet. All encrypted. All synthesised to give real time data. In a defensive posture in mountainous regions like Kashmir the Z10-ME will use mountain cover to be the deadliest assassin to enemy helicopters and low altitude loitering munitions.

https://x.com/Huk06/status/1951747609724625010

Comment by Riaz Haq on November 10, 2025 at 9:42am

Tactical Tipu
@Tactical_Tipu
Admiral Arun is very much right that India's Naval ASW backed by P-8 Poseidon will be a major player.

But fortunately enough for Pakistan Navy, Pakistan Air Force enjoys complete air superiority and these ASW platforms could not be protected by any fighter of the Indian Air Force.

https://x.com/Tactical_Tipu/status/1987796790339653902?s=20

-------------------------


Adm. Arun Prakash
@arunp2810
PN pursuit of Sea Denial strategy via acquisition of 8xYuan/Hangor class diesel subs will be countered by IN’s advanced ship/air ASW force. Of concern is this: by 2028 PN will field 11 subs equipped with air independent propulsion while we will have none! A 2022 backgrounder

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1987470351329346043?s=20

----------------


Sushant Singh
@SushantSin
Confirmation from Pakistan’s top naval official that Chinese submarines will soon arrive in the South Asian country suggests India’s dominance of the Indian Ocean could be tested and that Beijing has overcome a major technical hurdle

https://x.com/SushantSin/status/1987366830508319002?s=20

Comment by Riaz Haq on December 18, 2025 at 9:57am

Full article - Understanding the Rafale kills

https://www.key.aero/article/full-article-understanding-rafale-kills

EW at work
On April 29, a week after the Pahalgam attack, four IAF Rafales departed Ambala Air Force Station. Their mission, to bomb terrorist targets in the north, but according to the PAF, a mobile PAF electronic warfare (EW) unit deployed along the front line saw them approaching and jammed their radars and communications, while cyber-attacks on electric grids in the north, rendered the Rafales helpless. They abandoned their mission and instead diverted to Srinagar Air Force Station.



The Dassault 20ECMs of 24 ‘Blinders’ Squadron which had performed so well in Op Swift Retort in February 2019 (see panel) were not used in Operation Bunyan-un-Marsoos because of their lack in wattage power. Trying to overpower a target receiver is heavily influenced by the power output, and a lack of this power will make the jammer less effective at disrupting intended signals. This would have been the case with the S-400 air defence system or Rafale’s Thales RBE2 radar, which MBDA designed to be robust against jamming, and integrated with the passive Thales Spectra EW system.



The EW mobile units designed by the new NASTP (National Aerospace Science & Technology Park) in recent years, instigated by the PAF’s Commander, ACM Sidhu, were being fielded at various locations to jam targets. Between April 29, when the IAF tried their failed attack, and May 6, the PAF had watched the IAF deploy up to 20 Rafales from Hashimara (home of 101 Sqn in the Eastern Command) to Gwalior and several other bases (Ambala, home of 17 Sqn Rafales in Western Command, Srinagar and Bikaner/Nal in Rajasthan). Several S-400 SA-21 Growler surface-to-air missile batteries were moved to Adampur, Bhuj and Bikaner.

The IAF mobilised around 400 aircraft in late April and early May, with the transport fleet flying over 500 sorties, obviously to move around weapons, logistics and personnel for an attack. The PAF was prepared.



At 1230hrs on May 7, that attack came when the IAF bombed nine sites in Pakistan with long-range Spice 2000 precision-guided bombs. The CAS immediately changed the rules of engagement, with airborne PAF fighters instructed to move from defensive to offensive mode. He spoke directly to all the PAF pilots in the air via radio, commanding them to shoot them down, and according to several sources he told the airborne fighter pilots: “Kill them, kill them, don’t let them enter even an inch into Pakistan.”

The PAF could not let the attack go unpunished, and as the spokesman told me: “No one infringes Pakistani sovereign territory - we are entrusted to protect it.

“When the IAF released those bombs, there were already 72 IAF aircraft in the air, as their numbers had steadily increased. We started the attack on the different strike packages of Rafales, Su-30MKIs and Mirage 2000s.”

Most of the IAF’s 36 Rafales were flying in offensive mode on the Indian side of the border at some point and according to the PAF, they were equipped with MBDA’s highly capable Meteor BVRAAM, backed up by Su-30MKI Flankers armed with Israeli Derby BVR missiles and Spice 2000 precision-guided munitions (PGMs).



According to the ISPR (Inter Services Public Relations) press briefing on May 7, the IAF had eight formations lined up along the eastern border, each strike package comprised eight aircraft: four Su-30MKIs, two Rafales and two Mirage 2000s.



Locking on the target
A senior PAF pilot explained how they prepare for war with India, always a real possibility. “It’s in the training,” he said. “Going to theatre, the fighter’s radar cannot see all the targets as they are too far away, but the Saab 2000 Erieye does.”

Comment by Riaz Haq on December 18, 2025 at 9:58am

Full article - Understanding the Rafale kills

https://www.key.aero/article/full-article-understanding-rafale-kills

Locking on the target
A senior PAF pilot explained how they prepare for war with India, always a real possibility. “It’s in the training,” he said. “Going to theatre, the fighter’s radar cannot see all the targets as they are too far away, but the Saab 2000 Erieye does.”

As a high value asset and undoubtedly a target for India, the Saab 2000 Erieye will keep out of harm’s way flying close to the western border, over 400km (250 miles) from India. He continued: “The operator sitting in front of his screen in the Erieye will label the enemy aircraft into the different groups and assign them to the PAF packages. This will be done in groups of three or four aircraft according to azimuth and altitude, then the operator assesses and relays [the positions] to all the aircraft, but he will still control them.

“The war picture is built through Link 17/ Skyguard, which we see on the displays in our cockpit, and the aircraft we are assigned to shoot – which we term ‘the contract’. The Air Boss and his team [in the Multi Domain Ops Room] will also be looking over the scene on a massive screen in AHQ.

“The fighter pilots have two radios in the cockpit, one to discuss the complete aerial picture and another to talk to members in your formation.

“If I am targeting their no 1 and 2, I would see them on my scope, put my cursor on them and lock my missiles onto them.

“My radar is then locked onto the target and is linking info to the missile until a certain range, when the missile switches on to its own AESA [Active Electronically Scanned Array] seeker within the PL-15’s minimum abort range [MAR].”

The MAR is the closest an engaging aircraft can get to the target and fire the missile before getting out of a fight, before the missile threat is able to run you down.

“Once your missile’s active range (in this case the PL-15) is met, you can turn back (to ensure you don’t fly inside the MAR of a Meteor -let’s say 35 miles). The missile with its AESA seeker will then lock on to target and shoot it down.”

The author was told the Rafale pilots would not have known what hit them until the PL-15Es were about three seconds out.

“Remember, if you miss your designated aircraft, it could get you. We train continuously for this. A mission of 15 minutes can regularly take up to eight hours to debrief!

“In a war theatre you can put as many aircraft as possible up. The IAF sent 72 into the AOR [Area of Responsibility] but it’s a lot for the GCIs [Ground Control Interceptors] to control!”

One of the lessons the IAF must have learnt from that night was the sheer number of aircraft they deployed in the air was too much to handle. Each IAF GCI would have to manage several aircraft in an extremely dynamic situation, particularly as aircraft were being shot down. The PAF Commander said: “We designated an IAF aircraft for every J-10 or JF-17 Block 3 with the battle space being managed much better because of the multi domain ops.”

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